Heather Wentler, Executive Director of The Doyenne Group, joins The Savvy Entrepreneur to talk about how the group was founded to help women entrepreneurs.
Based in Madison, Wisconsin, Heather and co-founder Amy Gannon, Doyenne was born when Amy and Heather’s husband organized a Startup Weekend. And they notice that of the 130 attendees, only 10 were women.
Amy and Heather started on a quest to find a way to change that. They organized a women’s business breakfast during Madison’s Annual Forward Fest, a 5-day event for entrepreneurs.
The breakfast sold out rapidly. At the breakfast, they polled the attendees about what they were looking for and needed help with.
From there, Doyenne took off. Today, it consists of workshops, online courses, mentoring, and connecting women entrepreneurs with all of the many groups and resources that already exist. Plus, their signature Triple Threat Venture training, which is similar to an accelerator program.
Heather candidly shares how Doyenne has morphed over it’s 10+ year history, from changing its funding model to moving to online offerings. Its members are enthusiastic champions (see my interviews, for example, with Richelle Martin and Karen Renee), and it boasts numerous success stories. And it’s creating a cadre of self-described “badass women entrepreneurs” who clearly love helping each other.
Click on the arrow to listen to this inspiring interview! It’s a testament to what two women can do who are on a mission to create change.
The following is a transcript of our interview. If you’d prefer to listen to the show, go here.
Doris Nagel 0:10
Welcome to another edition of The Savvy Entrepreneur Show. This show is intended for all you entrepreneurs and small business people out there or people who want to become one.
I’m Doris Nagel, your host for the next hour.
The show has two goals. First, to share helpful information and resources. I’ve made lots of mistakes. I’ve seen lots of mistakes. So if I can help some of you out there not make some of those same mistakes, then I’ve been successful.
The second goal is to inspire. Sometimes being an entrepreneur is confusing. It’s often lonely, I think. You have no idea whether you’re on the right track or not. And sometimes it’s helpful to hear a story or two of a fellow entrepreneur who’s on the journey who faced similar issues, and listen to how they work through it.
So every week I have guests on the show who are willing to share their stories and advice.
My guest this week is Heather Wentler. She is the Executive Director and Co-founder of an organization called The Doyenne Group. You’ll hear more about that in in a minute, but in short, The Doyenne Group is a group of women entrepreneurs helping other women entrepreneurs.
Heather, thanks so much for being with me on the show this week. Welcome to The Savvy Entrepreneur!
Heather Wentler
Thank you so much for having me.
Doris Nagel
I’m delighted you are here today!
You know, I found you because several of my past guests on the show are either are or have been members of the Doyenne Group, or have been affiliated with it in some ways, and they all sing its praises.
Talk a little bit about The Doyenne Group. What is it, exactly?
Heather Wentler 2:11
Thank you for that great introduction. It’s always great to hear that our entrepreneurs that we’re working with speak highly of us.
Doyenne was founded about 10 and a half years ago, in 2012. I met my co-founder, Amy Gannon, at an event here in Madison, Wisconsin called Startup Weekend here in Madison. And it was really about starting a new venture. And Amy was one of the organizers. And my husband was actually one of the organizers as well. So I just kind of came to hang out meet some other entrepreneurs. And we noticed this huge discrepancy in the event attendance where there was 130 participants and only 10 were women. And why. And that was including us as the organizers!
So we were trying to figure out: why is this happening? And it can’t just be happening in our community. But we both had full time jobs and careers. Amy was also a mom. And both of us were wives partners.
But we started talking about lots of things — like, how can we start making a difference and have an impact?
And that’s really where Doyenne started: As a conversation about we can create change within our local community from a grassroots effort. And it’s morphed into what it is today and how we impact communities and the entrepreneurs that we work with.
Doris Nagel
How did you get started? What were the baby steps you took to get launched?
Heather Wentler 3:57
Amy and I used to joke that we dated for about six months before we felt comfortable actually launching the venture. We wanted to find out: can we work together? what are both of us looking for out of starting the venture? And what are our goals within working through this venture?
We always had margarita time [to kick things around], and that became a long-standing joke within the organization — like,”Heather and Amy need margarita time.” Those were times where we could connect and come back together as co-founders and strategize and bond. Even if there were no margaritas in hand, we would still call it Margarita Time!
After that [initial] six months, we started thinking, “Okay, let’s actually do this!” There’s a festival here in Madison every August called Forward Fest. It’s five days focused on entrepreneurial journeys, and on highlighting entrepreneurs: ways to tell stories, ways to get advice, ways to get connected with investors, other entrepreneurs, and people from the business community, mostly here in Madison, but also from across Wisconsin and the Midwest region. The idea is to help move those ventures forward.
So we formally launched at Forward Fest. We did a women’s business breakfast that sold out. And at the event, we really used to do R & D. We asked women: What are you seeing in our community? What would you what would if you woke up one year from now, five years from now, what would you want the community to look like? And how would you be supported from that community?
And that was really the validation. And it was overwhelming. And we were like,”Holy cow, this is actually way bigger than we thought it was!”
But it started with asking, “Okay, how can we start tackling some of these things that the women identified and moving it forward?”
Doris Nagel
You know, I think one of the challenges with any of these kinds of groups, not just women entrepreneurs, but really any kind of group or community you’re trying to develop, is where to start. There’s so many different possibilities. You can do online courses, or online events or breakfasts or mentoring groups or pitch competition. There’s an endless list of things that could be done.
How did you sort through all that, and decide which kinds of things would be the most impactful to start out with?
Heather Wentler 6:19
I think that we’ve done a lot of trial and error over the years. We try new ideas, and see how the community responds.
And it’s got an ebb and flow as well. So one year, it might be, people really are looking for that cohort type experience. And then, you know, the next year, it might be they want all online learning, for a variety of reasons.
So trying to meet those needs of the community really comes back to us really focusing on what can we do, and do really well. But also not cast such a wide net that we can’t really do anything.
[We realized that a big part of our mission] was how to leverage the other entities or organizations within our community that are also doing similar work. We knew we needed to have those partnerships and that ongoing communication, knowing what each other’s doing.
So we can say that this is our secret sauce. This is what we do really do well within Doyenne. So if what you’re looking for might not be what we’re able to do, we’ll refer you to these other groups or organizations. We’ll share what we’re hearing from people who are coming in who are looking for something similar. That way, we can help you level up your offerings, as well as meeting the needs of the community even more.
Doris Nagel
You’ve hit on a point that I’ve become more and more convinced of as I’ve hosted this radio show now for a little over three years. And that is that I’m not sure there’s a shortage of resources and information that are out there. Yes, there are a few gaps, but a lot of it is finding all the great resources that are already out there.
How did you start the process of connecting the dots and reaching out to different organizations to find out where all these bits and pieces reside?
Heather Wentler 8:18
Hmm. I have at least one person every couple of months that comes to me saying, “I want to map the entrepreneurial ecosystem.”
And I always say, “Go for it, because we need it.” That’s a full time job, because it’s changing all the time.
And then the question I always have back is, “Well, what do you consider part of the ecosystem? Do you consider someone who’s just doing a one and done event part of the ecosystem?” As opposed to an organization doing what Doyenne is doing, with full on programming and offerings year round. Or do you look at the impact it creates? And that’s where it gets really hard to assess.
Doris Nagel
Right. And the part of the ecosystem you need depends on where you are in the journey, too. If you’re just starting out, maybe a score mentor would be a good resource. But you know, if you’re ready to do a pitch competition, or pit thinking about pitching to venture capitalists, that’s probably not, that’s probably not the best fit for people at that point, they’re dry.
Heather Wentler 9:25
And that’s where it really comes down to, again, having these relationships and partnerships. So when someone comes to me saying, “I don’t really need my business model mapped out. I’m not a prime fit for this organization. What I really needed to develop my pitch to investors, because I can’t go anywhere until I get my investor dollars,” then I can say, “Okay, I know who you should go and talk to. Here’s how their program works.”
If it’s competitive, what are ways that we can support to get you a more competitive advantage to hopefully get you into that program. But also sometimes it’s helping them take a step back. Asking them whether they have all these pieces in place before they take that step.
I hear sometimes people say, “You’re trying to hold me back.” In my opinion, I don’t feel like I’m trying to hold you back. I’m trying to make sure you can get the “Yes,” instead of feeling burnt out even faster. People get burnt out when everyone is saying no to them, right? And it will help you to understand why you’re hearing the “Nos.” Because that’s something you don’t really get a whole lot of when you do pitch competitions or speak to investors. You just get the “No.”
Doris Nagel
Right. And the question is: why? And if somebody can help you understand from experience what those triggers are likely to be that cause you to be kicked out early on, yeah, that might be helpful.
Heather Wentler 10:49
Yes. So that’s why when you join Doyenne and you’re hearing “No,” we show you how we can help. And we also give you other people that can help you. Because every single venture takes a community. It takes more than just that founder or founding team or employees. It takes all of us helping support those entrepreneurs to lift them up and make sure their ventures are successful. And sometimes those are hard conversations.
Doris Nagel
Certainly, some organizations are much more about, “Hey, I’ll take your money or your time,” and try to pump you up.
Others are a little more blunt about their feedback. And actually, I personally think and have founded over the course of my career, those people who are willing to bite the bullet and say the unpopular thing, the person that just says, “Look, you’ve really got to do X and Y. Honestly, think about that.”
Those have been the most helpful people for me.
Heather Wentler 11:56
And it’s hard for the entrepreneur who is every single day in the business. No one wants to hear, “Go do more work before you’re ready to do what you’re trying to do.”
But I really look at working with the entrepreneurs and a relationship, and it’s a trust, and you have to build that relationship. And you have to build that trust before you can say those things.
Because you want to be able to come from a stance of, “I can empathize how I’m adding more to your plate, instead of taking something away.” But I always try to explain and show them how if you go and do this work, it’s setting you up for future success that maybe you wouldn’t be able to achieve if we just jumped the gate right now with what you’re trying to do.
Doris Nagel
It’s one of those intangible qualities that, in my experience, separate the really good and successful entrepreneurs from the ones who never quite get the traction they’re looking for.
After all, if you ask lots of people for advice, you’re gonna get lots of advice. And if you listen to all of it, you’ll spend all of your time trying to redo everything all the time. And that’s not sustainable. So you have to be able to sift through all that.
And then there’s other entrepreneurs — and I’ve worked with a couple of clients who are like this and they were no fun, because they’re paying you money and you want to do right by them – but you tell them things that they need to do, but they just don’t want to hear it. It’s like water on a duck. They nod and smile, but nothing happens.
So walking that fine line I think is really challenging for entrepreneurs. That’s especially true because most entrepreneurs are really attached to their idea. And they’re very vested in it — they’ve spent a lot of time and energy and probably money on it.
So finding that balance between listening, taking good advice and, and actually acting on it versus just, you know, trying to listen to everybody or listening to nobody is is a fine line.
Heather Wentler 13:59
And I tell all my entrepreneurs, when they work with me, or when they work with any of our coaches or mentors, “Remember their advice is based on the context that they have. At the moment, no one knows your business like you know your business, right? And it’s okay for you to say, “Nope,” or “I don’t think that’s a good fit.” But do it with respect.”
And as the coach or mentor, also take that feedback as well. Accept that they’re not willing to go there right now. Because basically, what you’re doing — and I use this analogy a lot – is like telling someone their baby’s ugly.
You’re saying, you know, like, oh, well, maybe if you put it into, if you put the baby in, like, a cuter outfit, would look better. You know, like, right, that’s what you’re saying. And that hurts. And, like, that’s, that’s what I feel like is a way to get across to people around like, when you even if you think you’re coming from the most, you know, most like, approachable and you’re trying to be helpful to that entrepreneur. No one wants to hear go do more, or go do better, or change these things. And then you’ll be alright. So yeah, that’s that’s a hard one on both sides to work through. But again, it just goes back to trust and relationship building.
Doris Nagel
Yeah. Well, and I think it’s really listening as an entrepreneur. And sifting through it all.
I had one guest who told me that she always was looking for advice. And she said that when she got a piece of advice, she didn’t act on it right away. But if she started to hear two, three different people saying kind of the same thing, she said, “That’s my cue that I need to stop and really look in the mirror and think about this, because there’s probably something going on here that I need to think through, and maybe do a little differently.” I thought that was pretty genius.
Heather Wentler 15:54
I think that’s great advice.
I tell that to my entrepreneurs, especially when we’re doing pitch practice, you know, of when you’re hearing, you know, as you’re getting questions and feedback at the end of your pitch, are they asking the questions you wanted them to ask? Is your pitch leading them down the path you want? Are they seeing the same vision that you’re painting?
Or if you’re hearing the same questions again, it’s exactly what you said. Does Is this a product or offering work? Should really be considering this? What my target market is telling me to do? Why am I not doing it? What do I need to change?
Doris Nagel
How did you come up with the name Doyenne?
Heather Wentler 16:32
That’s a funny story. Amy and I were going back and forth about what we wanted to call the group. And as much as you know, the organization is all about supporting women and historically marginalized genders. We didn’t want it to sound too girly, or too feminine. And so we can’t, you know, people were like, Oh, she called flourish, and they had all these like, flowery type things. And we were both just like, no, and no, either. Like, we didn’t identify as the pink and flowery girls. We were like, We are strong, independent, audacious women. I don’t want you to be considered a girl. I’m a woman. And there’s a lot that comes with that. And so it was actually on like dictionary.com. So I was looking up is using that the source feature for what are other words for feminism or flowers that felt more? You know, I can hold myself and stand up tall. And doyenne was the word of the day. So when you went to the website, it would show word of the day and I was like, Oh my god. I think this is it. You know, taking a picture taking a screenshot of it and texting it over to Amy going, I think I found her name. What do you think?
like, she took a, you know, I’m watching the chat bubbles appear and disappear, appear and disappear and I’m like this you’re gonna not like it?
And then like it was just a resounding all caps Yes, I love it! This is us! This is a name we can get behind!”
So, it was at that moment that we realized, “This is us. This is our brand.” Doyenne means a senior, prominent woman in their field. And we’ve really re-coined the term to mean a badass woman entrepreneur. It fits with that picture in our mind of someone standing tall, holding their head high, not taking crap from anyone and doing what needs to be done to make sure that they and their venture can move forward.
Doris Nagel
I love that story. How did you fund the organization, at least initially? And is that still the same model you’re using?
Heather Wentler 18:49
We are a 501(c) (3) nonprofit. When we first started, we were fully funded by donations and sponsorships. Oh, wow. Um, and that, I mean, it’s an early day venture. So Amy and I were working for free. Um, it wasn’t, you know, it wasn’t until like year five, I finally started getting a paycheck from Diane. And then your six Emmy came in full time within the organization. So, you know, as a nonprofit, we get a lot of questions around like, why should we have to pay for your programming when you’re a nonprofit? Well, little known secret, you can still have revenue streams, even as a nonprofit,
Doris Nagel
And people may not realize that if nonprofits are doing a lot of work, they often have a lot of expenses too.
To present programs and workshops, you need event space, or catered meals, and publicity. There’s a lot of expenses with organizing events, or doing anything, really.
Heather Wentler 19:51
Yes And sponsorship money comes and goes. When you first start, you are the flashy, hot thing on the scene. Three years later, not so much. So, we discovered that building revenue streams off just a sponsorship platform does not work.
Doris Nagel
I’m really surprised at that.
Heather Wentler 20:11
I mean, we still get sponsorships. We still get grants, and we still have individual donors.
But that’s equal to the revenue coming through programming and offerings that we have now.
What the sponsorships and all those other contributions from partners really do is offset what it would actually cost an entrepreneur if we were charging full market value for our programming. It allows us to offer things at the lowest price point possible. We have always wanted price not to be a hindrance to be able to come through Doyenne’s offerings. And we do payment plans for anything that has a fee associated with it.
But also just working with the entrepreneur to make sure that they’re able to get what they need. But also to help them look at it as an investment in yourself and your company. When you pay for our services and our experiences. It’s not just a transactional relationship.
Doris Nagel
I seem to recall that at one point you were supported through people buying annual memberships, but now it’s more event-fee- based? Or am I mixed up on that?
Heather Wentler 21:32
You’re correct. We used to have a membership model. And we got rid of that this year, in 2022.
And I’ll be honest, I was never a big fan of the membership model. I thought it was very much “pay to play”. I felt it had become the bar for entry to the organization. And then we had to create all these different pricing models: if you’re a member you get further discounts versus if you’re not a member, and that just felt icky to me.
So we got rid of the membership fee. While it was a loss in revenue, we’re able to make it up through showing our community here’s how we’ve created more opportunities for more people to be able to get support through the organization by not having this, which turns into higher revenues and returns for the organization in the long run.
Doris Nagel
It’s nice because people can then look at your different offerings and events and decide what makes the most sense for them personally. And it keeps those individual events very affordable, at least from what I saw. Talk about some of the key activities and events that you have.
Heather Wentler 22:41
Our signature program is our Triple Threat Venture Training. It’s a 20-week program. And as much as I don’t like using the word “accelerator,” it’s like an accelerator experience. And the reason I hesitate around using that word is when most people think about an accelerator, it means literally drop everything in your life. Usually you need to move to a different area. And all you’re gonna do for the duration of that program is work on your business.
With our Triple Threat Program, we recognize you’re an entrepreneur And as an entrepreneur, that’s only one of the hats you wear, one of the identities you wear all throughout your day and your life.
So we’ve built out the program to really fit within those other hats that you’re wearing. So that you don’t have to solely be focused on business development. You can still be running your business day to day, or working in that other job that you have to be able to support you being able to launch your business. Or be a parent, caretaker, whatever those other responsibilities. You have to be able to create the life that you want.
All that goes into account. So that you’re only putting in about three to four hours a week throughout that 20-week program.
Doris Nagel
That’s very manageable.
At what stage are most of the people? Can come in with a concept and really not much more? Or are most people much closer to revenue, or maybe already have some revenue?
Heather Wentler 24:18
We’re really focused on that early stage or emerging stage company. You’ve gotten through the proof of concept. You’ve identified your minimum viable product is, or what your first product or offering is, and you’ve started taking it to market.
Usually, the companies that I see that have the best experience coming through this program are at the stage where, “Okay, I’m kind of starting to hit walls now. How do I grow this”
It’s people who have taken this product or service as far as they can, given their skills and knowledge base. And they now need others to come in now to help them take it to the next level. That’s our sweet spot. That’s where we can leverage our community, our access to resources, the way that we approach working with entrepreneurs to help them create a strategic plan for action steps to be measurable action steps to be able to move them into that next phase of growth and success.
Doris Nagel
Beyond the Triple Threat program that you’ve talked about, what are some of the other typical or key services and events that you offer?
Heather Wentler 25:31
We launched our ISO learning program in March of 2021, right after lockdown and COVID. Everybody thinks ISO is short for “in search of”…
Doris Nagel
At first, I thought you meant International Standards Organization, ISO 13,001 or ISO 9001.
Heather Wentler 26:03
It actually stands for “isolated.”
You kicked off our program talking about sometimes the entrepreneurial journey feels like such a lonely experience. 100% I hear that every single day.
So our isolated programs were created – workshops and programming — where you’re learning something and you don’t feel by yourself.
So once a month we do a program that highlights everything from how to form an LLC, to how to establish IP, how to set up your books and accounting, how to do projections and cap tables, and how to handle your mental health when you’re in these different phases of entrepreneurship.
We do them over zoom. Anyone anywhere can join in these webinars, and they’re free as well. We also record them, and we put them on our Learning Lab. We call our Learning Lab “Netflix for Entrepreneurs.”
There are close to 90 offerings — webinars, courses, podcasts, episodes, that either we’ve created, or we’ve worked in partnership with other organizers or businesses to create. And they are detailed content knowledge that you are going to need as you go through the different phases of your business.
When people do pieces for the Learning Lab, the facilitators all must agree that if anyone watches their Learning Lab program and reaches out, they will get one at least one hour of free support.
So if I want to learn about IP and intellectual property for my business, I’m going to watch that webinar. And then I’m going to reach out to Stephanie, and here are my questions for her. And Stephanie will take that meeting and talk to you with no fees and no sales pitch that you need to become a client.
Now, as we know, there’s gray area within that, especially when you’re working with lawyers and accountants as to what is client privilege, right. But mostly, they’ll answer your questions. Unless it gets too detailed – maybe you’re actually going up against this other company, and I need to know how to keep myself safe. That can’t be handled in a 1-hour free consult, so then you’ll need a client agreement.
And then the other part, especially with ISO learning and the Learning Lab, is that not everybody’s in the same phase as your business. And not everybody is available at 1pm Central time on the second Thursday of the month, or whenever the webinar happens. So you can go and watch these whenever, on demand, whenever you’re finally able to sit down and are able process this information, or whenever your business is at the stage where you need it.
And we see huge attendance on those pieces, both live and on demand. So people can process it at a rate that they’re able to and come back to it and even watch it again.
Those are our big offerings. But we also do one on one coaching. You used to be able to sign up with any of our Doyenne coaches. All of our coaches go through a training process for how to work with our entrepreneurs, and they have to pass it before they’re able to meet with them. What we were learning that learning though, was that people wanted to meet with Doyenne staff first. So the new way of coaching is that when you sign up, you’re only able to meet with me or one of the other staff members first, and then we’ll open up additional calendars to our other coaches. You also get to work with a coach during that whole program as well.
Doris Nagel
How do people become mentors? How do you part how do you match entrepreneurs with your coaches or mentors?
Heather Wentler 30:16
On the website, there’s a coach or mentor application, and anyone can fill that out. Our coaches and mentors don’t have to just identify as woman or female to be able to work with the entrepreneurs.
They fill out that form. And on that form, they tell us a little about themselves and their areas of expertise. As part of the application review process, I usually will schedule a 15 to 20 minute phone chat or Zoom call to just get to know them a little bit more and understand whether they have they worked with entrepreneurs before.
Because working with entrepreneurs is very different than working with a typical corporate employee. A lot of times what I’ll hear from the entrepreneurs is, I’ve worked with a coach at a different organization. And when I ask, “How am I supposed to pay for these things like building out their product line or build out their tech,” and the coaches have told them things like, “Just move money in your budget.” And of course the entrepreneur is thinking, “I don’t have money in my budget. What’s that?”
And so that’s the important part of having that initial conversation. I want to make sure you understand what working with entrepreneurs is like. In addition, all of our coaches go through a training our mentors. They have a virtual webinar, it’s so it’s a condensed version of the training, because the mentors are just like a pop in talk support, and then pop back out. Whereas the coaches are more building a relationship.
Doris Nagel
How do you see the difference between a mentor and a coach?
Heather Wentler 31:52
The mentor is like a cheerleader that comes in, gives you suggestions, and then pops back out, and she leads you from the sideline. The coach is someone that you’re working with and that you’re having conversations with that are not typical in a first time meeting or a new conversation. They go into deeper information about the company, and to try to figure out, how does it all work? And how do we create what comes next?
Doris Nagel
Are your coaches or mentors compensated in any way, or are they all volunteers?
Heather Wentler 32:29
They are all volunteers, and they know that going in what we expect.
A lot of our coaches, thankfully, mentor through their jobs that they have, and are able to contribute volunteer hours within the community. And some of them actually get paid by their employer to do this as part of their charitable activities.
Doris Nagel
It’s essentially a form of a sponsorship.
Heather Wentler 32:52
Exactly. And we can use all of that in kind time towards some of our sponsorships and grants that we’ve been awarded through various organizations.
So we send all of our coaches a form at the end of the year so that they can calculate their hours at their hourly rate. And if you don’t know your hourly rate, we share the going rate in Wisconsin. We have them sign this letter and send it back to us, because we can submit all of those for in kind sponsorship and donations from those organizations.
Doris Nagel
You have seen a lot of entrepreneurs over the past 10 plus years. What are some of the most common mistakes you see?
Heather Wentler 33:35
One of the biggest mistakes I see is the entrepreneurs hold themselves back. And I think a lot of times they do it unknowingly.
Doris Nagel
This is one of my favorite topics. I’m dying to hear your perspective on it! Talk about some of the ways people hold themselves back.
Heather Wentler 33:55
Let me preface with my professional background, which is actually elementary education. That’s what I went to school for. So I have done a lot of studying and research into how the brain forms in those early years, right. And I really think, you know, how we behave in society as women really happens while we’re still in utero — even from what colors we’re supposed to wear once we’re born down to what are acceptable toys for us to play with.
Those are all setting the stage as to what society thinks being a woman looks like. And anytime you push back, you’re gonna get labeled.
Doris Nagel
That’s interesting. I actually I did a segment on my last show about the tall poppy syndrome. You want a nice field of poppies. And if a poppy gets too tall, it’s time to cut it down to size.
Heather Wentler 34:52
I have a poster up here in the office. It says “In a field of roses, be a wildflower.”
It’s the same idea.
And it’s why the tagline for our organization is “Be Audacious.”
And I love that, because being audacious is it can mean two things. It can mean being bold and brave and standing up for what you believe in. And it can also mean pushing boundaries.
Doris Nagel
And if do that, you potentially attract unflattering behavior and comments.
Heather Wentler 35:35
You know all of those things as a woman entrepreneur. You’re trying to overcome all of those societal norms that are saying, You are worth 10 times, whatever you’re asking for, you deserve it. And you should be putting that ask out there, you’re saying you are the best, and you’re the most competent person to be able to do this. And you have to exude that confidence. And you have to, you have to do it in a space and command attention and control of the space that you’re in and the work that you’re doing, which is not what we’re told and taught to do.
Doris Nagel
Circling back to your original comment that entrepreneurs hold themselves back? How does that reflect itself in women as entrepreneurs?
Heather Wentler 36:24
It’s an identity shift. Unless you’ve been taught how to do that, those are things you’re trying to overcome. And that’s where you hold yourself back.
Because that’s when you’re even if you are the most confident woman that you know, you still have self doubts. You still have a voice probably inside of you that saying, “Who do you think you are?” Right?
So you’re holding yourself back, because you’re trying to overcome that voice in your head. Now, that’s saying, yeah, that saying, why should why you, right? And so that’s where it goes. That’s where I feel like that’s how we hold ourselves back. Because we start listening to that voice. And it’s isolating – back to what we were talking about earlier: you feel by yourself, you don’t have others telling you your worth this!
Doris Nagel
This resonates so much with me. One of the things I talked about on my last show was that how much more difficult it has been, even as a woman and an entrepreneur — so it’s not like I don’t speak the language or I don’t have some ability to relate — to get women guests on the show. I am more likely to be ghosted by women entrepreneurs, I’m more likely to have nice conversations, but never be able to get on their calendar for the interview. I’m much more likely to get canceled on at the last minute. What is going on? And, you know, it almost never happens with men — almost never.
Heather Wentler 37:52
Oh no. They believe their story is worth hearing. But our story is just as important.
It’s just important as every woman story, no matter what,
Doris Nagel
There’s definitely something going on. Either there’s fear or apprehension about putting yourself out there, or a feeling you don’t deserve it, or a feeling that self promotion is not what you do.
I’m really a little baffled, to be honest with you. But I want to dig into it because I think that is the heart of some of the issues that we women face as entrepreneurs.
Heather Wentler 38:36
I think that we women all hear inside of our own heads. Why me instead of this person, and I don’t think that the average male has those same thoughts. I think some do, don’t get me wrong. And I thinkalso some women have no problem saying I deserve it, just as anybody else,
Doris Nagel
True. But more likely than not, you are correct.
And the males that I’m reaching out to are, for the most part are entrepreneurs. So they’re not necessarily a typical slice of the male population or people in general.
But anecdotally, I’ve been amazed at the number of male entrepreneurs who come on the show, and when you start digging down to what they’ve been doing, they don’t have very much. But they’ve puffed it up and made it into something big when they initially chat about it. It sounds amazing. And they’re absolutely unabashed about selling it just the most amazing thing.
And at the other end of the spectrum, they’re these women who have phenomenal ideas, phenomenal concepts, and businesses. They have really thought things through, but their response is, “Well, I’m not really ready for primetime.”
I find it quite interesting.
Heather Wentler 40:01
There’s been numerous studies that have been done around side by side job applications, where one has a woman’s name, one has a man’s name, and how the man’s resume will get the job faster. And that definitely happens as well with certain ethnicities and racial names as well.
There have been studies done around investment. They’ll have a male come in and deliver a pitch for a company and a female will come in and deliver the exact same word for word pitch, and the man is more likely to receive the funding. The investors will have questions around, Is she ready yet?
We talk a lot about this in Doyenne. We refer to it as, “Are you checking the boxes?” Let’s say there’s a list of 10 things that need to be done before you’re ready to go to market. What we typically see, and this comes across in this research, too, is that if men can check three, they believe they’re ready to go.
Women are looking to have nine boxes checked. At that point, they think maybe they’ll be ready. Right? Those are gender biases that we’re trying to overcome and trying to address.
So yeah, it IS a lot harder. I mean, this isn’t going to be fixed in the next couple of years. It’s going to take decades, because it’s going to take generational thought. And also, all of us need to take steps and acknowledging that we’re doing these things to make this change happen.
Doris Nagel
What I also thought was interesting, but it absolutely resonated with my own personal experience, is that when research was being done about the tall poppy syndrome, the people doing the cutting down were as likely to be other women as men.
I don’t want to get way off into the weeds. But I think there are a lot of ways we women don’t fully support each other, and we may not be completely aware of that.
Heather Wentler 42:15
Yes. When we first started seeking mentors and coaches, we were reaching out to people. And a lot of women said, “Yes. I want to be able to help because I don’t want people to have to face the same challenges I did. “
But we also had a number of people that responded, “I figured out how to do it on my own. And I figured out what type of person I had to be to make it happen. Why can’t they do it themselves?”
Doris Nagel
It’s “two man enter, one man leave” mindset.
Heather Wentler 42:55
It’s also about looking at our ladders differently. We don’t need to see the ladder as something only one person can climb it at a time. There might be rungs that are big enough to have two or three people on the same step.
Doris Nagel
It doesn’t have to be a zero-sum game all the time.
Because of the pandemic, I know more of your events have become virtual and you’ve also moved from a more of a full annual membership kind of model to an event model.
I’m curious about what impact that it has had on Doyenne. Is it more difficult to feel like part of the community when you’re just there for an event or an event or two, as opposed to raising your hand and saying “I’m a full fledged member of this group?
Heather Wentler 43:36
I don’t think so. When I look had our impact numbers for this year, they’re right on par to where they have been in past years when we had membership, if not higher.
Because people feel like they don’t have to put up the upfront expense of a membership, they then can have these other opportunities. And I would say that a lot of our programming and offerings are very circular. They all feed into each other. And no matter where you’re coming in, there’s ways to keep continuing through that circle.
We used to have a roadmap. It was the funniest graphic we ever had. We had on ramps and off ramps, you come in and come out and join with others. And it was also built for if you’re not an entrepreneur: how do you on ramp and off ramp.
There’s still those pieces. Anyone can get on the circle of support. So you might come to Doyenne through an ISO learning and find, hey, you know, what, I have a lot of knowledge, I want to lead an ISO learning.
Or you might come in through the Triple Threat Program and realize, “Okay, this was a great first step. Learning teams is my next step to keep that community going of other women entrepreneurs to support me going forward.”
So whatever way you come into Doyenne, there’s still ways to keep going. But we also know that you’re going to plateau out of Doyenne, and that’s where you can become a coach or a mentor. But we also want to make sure you have the next level of resources to move forward, which goes back again to that larger community of the Wisconsin ecosystem and beyond to the Midwest and national ecosystems, so that we can help you go where ventures like yours usually go next.
Doris Nagel
That’s a good segue to my next question. Initially, you were pretty focused on Madison and Milwaukee, or maybe greater Wisconsin. But with the pivot in your business model and the move to having lots of online events and a virtual library, you might very well attract women entrepreneurs from all over the place.
So is Doyenne still focused on Wisconsin? Or do you see it becoming kind of more regional or even national or global?
Heather Wentler 46:09
Good question. Back in 2018, we had revamped the strategy again, and we were starting to build out Doyenne chapters and defining what a Doyenne chapter city would look like. In 2019, we piloted Doyenne Milwaukee. And so we had Madison and Milwaukee each with their own Doyenne chapter, with programming happening in each of those communities.
But then, at the end of 2019, my co founder, Amy, was involved in a tragic helicopter crash with her daughter, and passed away while they were on Christmas vacation.
Doris Nagel
I’m so sorry.
Heather Wentler 46:50
Thank you. So we came back from the holidays, having lost half of the executive leadership within the organization. And then three months later, the pandemic happens.
Doris Nagel
Wow, talk about a couple of body blows!
Heather Wentler 47:06
We were still in the middle of heavy grief and trying to figure out what comes next. And then, all of our offices were basically closed because of the pandemic. We needed to figure out how do we keep this going.
We were figuring it out. And those close to the organization saw it happening day to day.
But the silver lining with pandemic is we had to go virtual. And we have had to figure out how to create this space where we can support entrepreneurs where they’re at, when they need it most. To not be able to have those in person interactions but still understand what they’re looking for.
And although many things have gone back in person and people are adapting to a blended model, I’ve continued to offer online opportunities, and am starting to explore a more blended model myself. But it’s been hard, trying to figure out how do we create an actual equitable blended model where virtual and in person have a same experience? And so that’s why I’ve chosen to not offer an in person option right now.
And, exactly to your point, that way, I’m able to do is hit entrepreneurs from not just my local community, but from everywhere, at a fraction of what it cost to the organization to be able to have even just the two cities up and running.
Doris Nagel
Certainly, your ability to scale at least certain offerings, is much greater.
Again that leads to my next question: where do you see Doyenne in maybe three to five years?
Heather Wentler 48:53
Oh, you’ve got me doing my deep thought blank stare right now!
Doris Nagel
Fortunately, we cannot see you doing that at this point. So you can make something up if you like [laughing]
Heather Wentler 49:10
Well, please don’t hold me to it. But honestly I don’t know. When I’m working with the entrepreneurs, even right now, towards the end of 2022, I still feel like our economy is at this unstable point. We don’t know if a recession is actually going to happen, because the economists keep changing their mind. Right?
So I’m telling my entrepreneurs to still only really be thinking about 6, 12, maybe 18 months from now. So, in three to five years, a lot could happen.
Doris Nagel
And to add to that, I’m not even sure that we fully processed yet the all the implications of the pandemic and what it means.
I know one of the things that has happened is the number of people interested in entrepreneurship has picked up. Certainly more women than men proportionally, have left the workforce, at least temporarily. We don’t know if it’s permanent or not. And the other thing is the demographics of people starting businesses — women are starting businesses at a much higher rate than men. And in the last study I saw, women of color are starting more businesses than any other demographic. So I’m not sure what that means, either.
Heather Wentler 50:36
Yes. A lot of people, especially in 2020, kept saying, “I just want to go back to 2019.”
Part of me understood what they meant, because we felt comfortable in 2019 in knowing what “normal” life was like.
But the pandemic happened. I think is still happening and the repercussions are still happening. There is no going back. We are developing a new normal.
And that new normal needs to look different. Because if we want to close some of the gaps in equity and sustainability and just overall success for everybody, we cannot keep operating the way our society looked like in 2019.
There needs to be a super big overhaul and changes. We identified a ton of systems that don’t work at every single level within our society, right? And they’ve been thrown in our face. And instead of being thrown in my face, like here’s one or two a year, it’s like one or two a week.
And now we’re moving into the new normal. But I didn’t have any time to process all the trauma and everything that I’ve gone through for the past 24 months or more.
Doris Nagel
Right. And I don’t even know if there’s agreement that it’s the new normal. I believe some people think that we’re already back to where we were. And I think other people are thinking, “Wait. We can’t go back, and we don’t even have agreement on what the new normal should look like or does look like.”
So I agree with you. There’s still a lot of debate, work, and tension ahead.
Heather Wentler 52:38
That’s why I saw I don’t know what Doyenne will look like in three to five years. I don’t know if I’ll be in this position anymore. That’s a long way away.
Doris Nagel
Heather, I knew the hour would fly by. I feel like you’re somebody I could probably chat with for another hour or two hours. And I would love nothing more at some point to sit down over a real live cup of coffee with you. And hopefully I’ll get a chance to do that.
But if people are interested in knowing more about the Doyenne Group or some of the events and the amazing library that you have, or maybe connecting with you to talk about being a coach or mentor, what’s the best way for them to do that?
Heather Wentler
If you go to doyennegroup.org, you’ll find a lot of the information there. Anyone can also email me at heather@thedoyennegroup.org is my email, so please send me an email and let me know what you’d like to learn more about.
We do an info session once a month on the third Wednesday of every month at noon central time that anyone can register for free to learn about all our offerings, how to get more involved, ask your questions. If you can’t come at that time, we also do record it. It’s is on the Learning Lab, and anyone can access that.
We’re aksi on Facebook. We don’t really post on Twitter at twitter anymore. But we do have an Instagram and a LinkedIn account. Doyenne Group is our username. And you’re welcome to follow along.
We do have a newsletter mailing list for learning about events. And then once a month we do our Brick by Brick, which is our digital publication. That’s all focusing on how do we transform the narrative and what should entrepreneurship look like.
Doris Nagel
I subscribe to it. And I will attest that it’s a really well-done publication. So check that out, folks.
Heather, thanks so much for being with me this week. It was really a delight having you.
Heather Wentler
Thank you so much for having me. And it was so nice talking.
Doris Nagel
Likewise.
And thanks to all my listeners, you are the reason I do this every week.
Check out my new YouTube channel, called The Savvy Entrepreneur Radio show. There you will find all sorts of past episodes of shows. It is a library full of amazing guests with amazing stories, telling, telling about their journey from the heart and also sharing some of their best free advice. So I guarantee if you listen to some of the shows, you’ll be inspired, and you’ll learn some tips.
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My door’s always open. I welcome comments and questions. Reach out to me. If you have a guest in mind, you want to be a guest or you just want to shoot the breeze. My email is dnagel@thesavvyentrepreneur.org
Be sure to join me again next week. I’ll have another great guest. But until then, I’m Doris Nagel, wishing you happy entrepreneuring!
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